Real Art Collectors Vs Fake Art Collectors Myth

Real Art Collectors Vs Fake Art Collectors Myth


random art-tips and rainbows with Rafi
Ola you amazing artist it’s Rafi and Klee and today we are going to talk
about an expansion of what we talked about last week on the podcasts about
the art world versus the real art world I got a comment on YouTube from somebody
on my video of where to find art collectors and this person gave me a
long diatribe about how if you wanted to make a real impact on the world you
needed to find the right kind of collectors to collect your work in not
so many words insulted but didn’t insult me by saying like you know I understand
that you have people that call themselves collectors of work but you
don’t have real art collectors that actually make a difference in the art
world oh so this is the casual collector versus the serious collector argument
right exactly which is interesting because I have
serious collectors but this person assumes that I do not because I’m not in
like Sacchi gallery or one of these big big giant galleries where they turn
artists into a conveyor belt what ends up happening and a lot of my videos is
the stuff that I discuss flies in the face of conventional thinking when it
comes to the art world this person is coming from a perspective that a lot of
artists come from which is you need to go out you need to cultivate the right
kind of collectors which means that you need to go to Art Basel and big shows
and smooths and kiss some butt and find the kind of collectors that will make a
name for you that way you could be auctioning things off at Christie’s and
things like that and I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with doing that
if that’s what you want to do but as far as I am concerned the gatekeepers of the
past are kind of outdated and in that sense it’s almost like you are going and
you are pursuing something in order to meet riches and and gain all kinds of
artistic notoriety out there you think that that’s what it
means to become a real artist and I think that the reason that a lot of
people will believe that that’s what it means to become a real artist is because
the only artist that you see on the news are usually these big name artists that
is connected with one of these big name people and their piece auctions off or
an unbelievable amount of money I think that it’s okay if that’s what you want
but my stuff caters towards artists that that’s not what they’re looking for that
you are not looking to keep your fate and your art career in the hands of
someone else that you are willing to blaze your own Trail and decide that you
are gonna take the reins on your our career that you’re the one that’s going
to be in control of your financial future that you’re the one that is going
to decide where and when your art gets displayed the thing that a lot of people
don’t understand about this art world is that when you are playing those rules
you are playing by their rules and if you decide to not play by their rules
you end up becoming an outcast no matter how popular or famous you become yeah
they even have a name for it it’s called outsider art and again I think I’ve said
this in previous podcast but I find it laughable that the art world of all
worlds in this world is trying to live by this rigid set of guidelines and
rules and I guess it boils down to we’re not saying that any route you choose to
take as an artist is bad we’re just saying as an artist of all things
question what you’re being told are the carved in stone rules for an art career
I think a lot of it comes down to your own self-esteem as an artist and whether
or not you’re willing to call yourself an artist there was something that this
person said that really stood out to me which was if you want your artwork to
have a long lasting impact then it has to be in the hands of one of these taste
makers I think the problem is there is a lot of news out there as far as the art
market is but when it comes to artists and looking at that dream of becoming a
big name artists out there in that art commodities market that they don’t think
what it actually entails and how much they lose their creative freedom I don’t
think they think about that do you remember the name Alexandra Nechita no I
can’t say I do Alexandra nachito was an 11 year old
artist back in the 90s who likes old paintings for $100,000 right Internet
yeah she came out on Oprah she did these abstract paintings and there was big
hullabaloo around her after having experienced that art market that that
thing she said that there was this love of painting that she had as a child that
she was kind of born with that wanting to paint and that was that was her stick
obviously back then and a lot of the big-name galleries jumped on that and
they ended up making her career into what happens to a lot of these artists
which is you become a conveyor belt to supply artwork to all of these galleries
has to be a specific style of artwork and it needs to go out and instead of
like creating artwork because that is what you want to create or you want to
switch up your style or you want to do something else
basically they become your manager and tell you exactly when and where to
perform when and where to create and you have a contract that you signed with
them that you have to do this thing that way right they don’t want you to push
the boundaries they want you to stay consistent because you’re a marketable
commodity exactly it’s really very much the same as a musician who gets signed
to a record label because they have some good songs and then the record label
wants them to consistently produce the same type of music because they know
they can sell it people get typecasted and essentially what ends up happening
is that you become marketable for that one thing that you create and then if
you have somebody who’s representing you or managing you they want you to create
that one thing that one specific style because that’s what they know is going
to sell and it’s why years later and yes she’s benefited from that financially
and so she has no regrets for that but it is now that she’s able to create
again for the sake and the love of creating
she said that for years her creativity just Windell because she got sucked dry
from that conveyor belt mentality of creating stuff basically she was
creating product she wasn’t creating art she was simply
creating product yeah and that’s definitely a recipe for stagnation as an
artist that was one of my arguments with this person it was like listen if that’s
what you want to do if you want to approach that life be aware of what that
life entails if you’re happy with that because the financial benefits are good
for you then hey by all means please do that pursue that and good luck with that
for somebody like me who looks at that kind of thing and says you know what if
I were doing that I might as well just go and work a corporate job where I
could make a lot of money because then in that case I’m not creating for the
sake of creating I’m creating because there is a need that needs to be met and
my managers are telling me that I need to do this job and I need to do it by
this time and by that time and I just don’t want to live like that
I would much rather cultivate my own audience cultivate my own following and
eventually have those gatekeepers approach me and have those deals be on
my terms rather than the other way around because I’m already known for
being Who I am I would much rather be in a position where I could turn a big-name
gallery down then to be in a position where I am chasing after them and doing
whatever it is that they want me to do in order for me to feel like a
successful artist yeah and in that scenario you’ve already
established yourself as a rule breaker and a rabble-rouser and so a gallery
would know right off the bat what they’re getting into and if they want
your art then they know yeah in the how to get into an art gallery video it’s
not about getting into a gallery it’s about putting yourself in a position and
it does take it takes time to get there but it’s about putting yourself in a
position where you don’t need a gallery in this day and age you don’t need a
gallery we don’t need to follow that old requisite of the way that things were
where you have to go through this gatekeeper and this gatekeeper and this
gate keeper in order to make a name for
yourself yeah it’s true 20 years ago you really did need representation because
there weren’t other options available to you
nowadays there are tons of options available to you and the fact of the
matter is those gatekeepers those galleries those insider art people they
don’t want you to pursue those avenues obviously right the old guard is doing
whatever it can to hang on to the way that things were because that works for
them but you don’t need those things and times are changing and I think there’s
some resistance as there usually is resistance when things change to
adapting new ways of thinking if anybody out there is interested in seeing what
the art market is like you could watch that documentary that is on Netflix
called blurred lines yeah really gives a great representation of what’s going on
with the art market and why the art market is so unattainable what’s even
going out with galleries and I’m not saying that like all the galleries out
there I like that a lot of the local galleries in fact the majority of the
business in the art market is pretty legit it is all about local art it is
about local galleries and artists and pairing up artists with those collectors
out there that are interested but as far as like the ones that make the news are
gonna be the ones that sell for a hundred thousand dollars they’re gonna
be the ones that sell for a million dollars we’re gonna be talking about old
masters we’re gonna be talking about all these underground deals and all these
illegal happenings and these these inflated prices on artwork that’s what
I’ve done I’ve questioned do I really want to become part of that art world I
would much rather create my own art world there are plenty of art collectors
out there that are taste makers that are not part of this art commodities market
there are plenty of art collectors out there that have never collected art and
our collecting art for the first time I’d like to address the topic of the
serious collector versus the what illegitimate art collector yeah I’m not
really sure what he was getting at I think it was just a jab at me saying
like well I’m pretty sure the comment was something like
I’m pretty sure that none of your so-called collectors are genuine art
collectors okay so the genuine art collector here’s the flaw in that
thinking if your art were to gain global notoriety on a large scale either during
your lifetime or after you pass all of a sudden your illegitimate art collectors
are now tastemakers exactly and they were visionaries because they saw your
talent before everyone else did and then those people will be lauded for their
forethought and they’re jumping on before everyone else exactly I mean then
there are stories of that in the art world you’ve got the Vogel’s that
collected who knows how many millions of dollars worth of artwork and they were
not considered tastemakers yet every one every single event that there was they
went to those events because they had such a huge collection they it didn’t
matter they weren’t these people that were exclusive in the art world there
were people that just collected art because they liked it and they thought
it was beautiful in fact he would go and visit studios and he see like a scrap of
something on the floor that the artists had used in creating something and he
would say how much do you want for that I love the story of the Vogel’s and I
was going to bring them up too because they were not part of the in-crowd in
the beginning they were not buying paintings for financial reasons they
were not wealthy and they were not affluent people they just bought
paintings because they liked them and they and they amassed one of the largest
most important art collections that we know of today that’s where that comment
really bothered me because I love my collectors I absolutely adore my
collectors and I feel like most of my collectors are tastemakers within their
own specific region this person made it seem like they were not important and
that was my response to his comment it’s like listen I don’t value one human over
another human I value all humans and especially if they’re collecting my
artwork then they are deep in my heart I am NOT going to chase after someone to
collect my artwork simply because I think that they have more value than
someone that’s bullshit that’s what sat with me
really really wrong about that statement but it also made me realize that that’s
kind of the way that a lot of artists see the art world dollar signs
yeah dollar signs they’re looking at dollar signs over a specific person and
this person is the person that I got to get my artwork in front of and this is
the person that I got to get my artwork in front of so that I could have more
opportunity instead of it just being about sharing your art and communicating
your voice out into the world and really cherishing anybody that is listening and
looking at your art and becoming a collector or becoming a follower
that gets lost in that it’s all about the dollar signs and honestly in my mind
it’s like okay that well that’s fine you do what you got to do but you’re kind of
like a chaser of tastemakers that’s what you become yeah I mean in that realm
your goal is to become a commodity it definitely feels a little dirty to me
and it sort of loses the beauty that is the creation of art for art’s sake and
the collecting of art for love’s sake I think the music industry is a little
ahead of the power curve and that’s why I’m always looking at the music industry
because indie music independent music is a recognized John renow right it wasn’t
before now it is and I think the music industry people started to realize I
don’t know a decade or so ago that they could do it on their own is macklemore a
reputable artists refused to sign to a label did it all himself is he part of
the scourge of the music world I would say no no I have mad respect for artists
like that that do it themselves it doesn’t make you illegitimate if you
don’t follow the traditional path no and but I also think that that was not a
possibility about 20 years ago right and so things are changing the difference is
when it comes to the the music world and the art world is that there is billions
of dollars being exchanged every year in the art market and you’re not dealing
with publishing companies and just galleries you know you’re dealing with
people that are buying artwork and selling artwork
in essentially a very unregulated stock market because there is no regulations
to regulate the the art market there just isn’t there’s a whole lot of fraud
and weird weird things happening in that world exactly exactly people are
collecting certain art by a certain artist they’re inflating the price and
then you know when to sell it’s the same thing as like I’m holding on to this
stock until it’s a good time to sell and that’s the way that it’s run and there’s
a lot of illegal stuff going on in the background and there’s a lot of trickery
and there’s a lot of all of that stuff involved with very high ticket high
dollar items and when you’re dealing with a market like that where it is a
central few that are making money off of that when you think of the stock market
there’s all this corruption that goes on in the stock market right and the stock
market is regulated so imagine an unregulated stock market that’s what
you’re dealing with when you’re dealing with these auctions at Christie’s and
when you’re dealing with these high ticket items and a lot of the old
masters that’s what it’s become and that’s what this person was saying was
that that’s the art that will leave an impact forever man somebody should have
told van Gogh that and what I told him was I could give a crap what happens to
my art after I die this is not because I want to leave a long lasting legacy of
art out there and that I want my art to be traded for millions of dollars that
is not why I’m creating art hey I’m not going to enjoy the millions of dollars
because I’ll be dead and be as far as leaving a lasting impression I want to
leave a lasting impression by the way that I lived my life and so this person
said that oh well these tastemakers none of these your artwork will basically
become extinct the and the truth of that is that I have sold over a thousand
works of art they’re all out there in the world in people’s collections
hanging on buildings hanging in businesses hanging all over the war
and I have no idea what will happen with that art after I die either some pieces
will become famous some pieces won’t they might be selling at a flea market
they might be selling at a thrift store they might end up into garbage
I mean I don’t care what cares what my legacy is is the people who I have
formed a connection with the stories that I have created within myself and
the life that I have lived in how much I was able to put myself out there while I
was alive how much I was able to enjoy my life while I was alive if my life was
able to inspire someone else while I was alive then that to me is all I need in
order to leave a legacy yes not quantifiable in dollar amounts no no
that’s what it comes down to I create my art because I am trying to brighten the
world I am writing this book because I am trying to brighten the world I am
writing music and living my life the way that I’m living my life because I am
trying to brighten the world that is the legacy that I want to leave and like you
said it’s not quantifiable and it’s definitely not in dollar amounts that
that is not the legacy that I’m Picasso’s paintings are secondary to how
much it’s sold most people don’t even care what the painting looks like
they’re just looking at the dollar amount
yeah and they forget that in Picasso’s time it was degenerate art it offended
people and it was so emotionally impactful that it created an entire
movement all of those movements were a joke and it wasn’t like the taste makers
were like yo let me get this and make it whatever they were turning it down just
the same way that everybody else was the relationships that formed and the things
that made these artists stand out was not something that they pursued it was
relationships that they developed and how do you develop a relationship with a
tastemaker or not a tastemaker whatever it is that
people want to call them with a collector is one-on-one you develop a
relationship that’s it you don’t single somebody out you just
develop a relationship with as many beautiful collectors people that are
attracted to your art because it speaks to them and thus you already have a
relationship you already have an icebreaker there and that’s the way that
you have to have a tastemaker somebody who loves your art and they talk about
your art that’s what a tastemaker is I think the bottom line is you don’t know
who the tastemakers 10 years from now are gonna be there may be working at a
gas station exactly how exactly that’s saving up their money to buy their first
piece of art or they don’t even know that they like art yet you don’t know
what’s gonna happen with your art who’s gonna collect it and what’s gonna happen
after that so you better be in it for the right reasons because who you are
does matter and the legacy that you leave behind is really mostly how people
felt when interacting with you I couldn’t agree more
and that being said you guys know the best way to run your our business these
are our opinions so to that person that left me that hey like I said in the
message to you you know what’s best for you you pursue that and make the best of
it and have a good time if you want to pursue the big-name tastemakers and
absolutely go and do that it just it’s not my shtick it’s not the thing that I
want to do and I’ve put a lot of thought into it
alright and that’s it and tomorrow we’ll be posting a video on a YouTube where
I’ll be talking about one of the chapters in the book that correlates
with one of the questions that we got so cool and thank you so much for listening
you guys you guys are absolutely freaking amazing I totally adore you we
adore you yes we do basically this is just clean ice sitting down having some
coffee having a conversation about what’s going on in the art world or
what’s going on within our art world and careers so yeah we want to share that
with you and that way you could join us for coffee every Monday afternoon and
that’s it for now we’ll talk to you next Monday adios good day

32 thoughts on “Real Art Collectors Vs Fake Art Collectors Myth

  1. I know you have surely much to. do. For me I prefer the videos with your faces on. It is easier to understand for me as a german. With no face it's quite hard to koncentrate don't know why 🤷‍♀️

  2. Thank you Rafi and Klee. This is great! It's so true about what you said about conforming to Art galleries as I had an Art gallery interested in my Artwork but the gallery owner wanted me to create work to his taste. I disappeared rapidly and never looked back!

    I will not allow anyone to dictate how and what I create as an Artist!

    Much love you guys, from Kristys Bespoke Art. 🖌 🎨 🖼 🇬🇧

  3. I've heard there are artist that get caught up in the business side of selling their art, that they became stagnant with their creativity. They said they really felt drained and not very happy.

  4. I paint because I want to paint, and it is my only means of income, thanks to a failing heart. I have always painted what I do with the hope that the person who would appreciate it most is willing to spend their hard-earned coin to have it be part of their environment and life. BTW anything is art if it's promoted as such.

  5. So many of the biggest names in the art world were social outcasts, pushing boundaries, trying new things, and died poor and unknown. Art comes from the artist, and the 'value' of a piece comes from the connection a viewer has with it. We have so many options to show our work to the public, our audience can find what they like more easily. Our collectors drive demand on our work. The more meaningful our work is to our viewers, the more collectible and valuable it is. I have art hanging on my walls from unknown artists because I love it, not because a gallery endorsed it.

  6. I think a perfect example of this is Barnett Newman, he even stopped showing for many years. His works sells for gazillions now. I think there is all levels of artist and different earning potentials, btw it has nothing to do with talent. I create art that basically has no audience at the moment and I am a professional at self sabotage, so my earning potential is nothing but I paint what I want. Who knows maybe someday I will sell paintings but you have to love what you do.

  7. quite the eyeopener for me. my thought is why in the world would you work at something for another's whim for making money. I think the tragic end of Thomas Kinkade (I never was inclined to even get a trinket of his line or a picture) but I believe it is selling ones soul to sell out. what the Hoyte toity are missing. good podcast you two! (and thanks for helping me do my dishes! 🙂 )

  8. I get caught developing a subject mater into a target aria were the interest would be to an audience who couldn't afford the quality of intent to the peace.  As for flipping that around to a million people at $1.00 each, paper is no match at the instant images on the cell phone.  When I projected my Premier Master stroke (Satan in The Glorious Inferno of the Underworld on Halloween) "7 Samhain" wile painting on it to Abu Dhabi (Having all that Oil Money) hoping to live on through the eyes of the Lord that stands at the gate /as to barter my soul by offering them a Kosher pork Hot Dog on a Iron splint in part of my after life.  All the while the Angel at my right shoulder kept shaking his head in bewildering dis-may eventually causing the skyscraper over there to catch on fire.

  9. Loved this podcast. 👍
    Yeah, I've noticed that the art snobs really are holding onto the idea that, if you want to buy good art, you can only get it through galleries. -You can almost hear some collectors saying, "Oh, I would never buy art outside of a gallery, or without my (trusted) dealer."…
    -I'm with you guys, I prefer ART FREEDOM over gallery contracts any day.😄
    Hey, this podcast thing must be working for you guys…. You both sound so relaxed 🤗. 🙋

  10. Rafi and Klee,
    It's a blessing to have found your channel and now I never miss it! Thanks for sharing all the lessons youve learned about the every day lives of working artists. I paint regularly but have not been making many sales. Gonna buy your book anf get more serious about finding my own collectors. And they can be poor long as they like mu work. 😄

  11. I'm one of those old farts who is eyeing an illustration career as a potential income stream and for my own personal edification and sanity. As late to the party as I am (I'm 50) even I can tell that there are no creative industries that aren't completely evolving practically every 5 years… "Conventional Thinking" is dead: it's a bunch of white-haired old people desperate to maintain some sense of validity in an ever-changing world they can't keep up with. A smart artist of today knows those traditional pathways CAN'T be effective or relevant to their endeavors anymore… The internet's impact on the industry and the World has significantly democratized things and things just don't work the same way anymore… The only art worth making anymore is something that speaks to the hearts and minds of the artist and the buyer. That's it. That's all it can be. Hopefully, along the way of an artist's journey, they'll find those near them who are endeared to their capacity to make them feel and think in ways they can't get anywhere else. Art today must now be Personal, not Commercial.

    I just can't imagine how a young artist, ANY new artist– can take this on as a career and not realize that. It's the Old Guard that can't accept it, and it's changing all around them.

    I am SO glad I found you two. I'm a Patreon subscriber now. You speak to my personal world. Thank-you for that.

  12. My art has never been suited for galleries or the typical art snobs. I make what I want when I want. I much prefer underground artists to the gallery types. You hit the nail on the head with galleries are obsolete in the age of the internet.

  13. 3D is falling away. Macklemore is amazing, but even as far back as Queen telling those record companies to F off in the name of bohemian rhapsody and Prince and George Michael of the 80s were stepping away from (or blazing their own trail) from record companies.
    Van Gogh…
    I mean seriously, the artists who are artists for the sake of being so don’t give a flip about the so called taste makers.
    Let the “taste makers” go down with 3D consciousness while the rest of us rise.

  14. Hi Rafi and Klee, Have a question for you that has been on my mind for quite awhile. I battle with self confidence in selling my art as I think a lot of us do. I hurdle that I wonder if you guys face is that I dont purchase others art for my walls because I hang my own art on my walls. One mental battle I have is that internal voice saying you dont even buy art so why would anyone want to buy yours. It's hard for me to put myself in an art buyers shoes because I dont buy art myself. Does that make sense? Do you two by other peoples art?
    thanks for your response! Your videos are so encouraging for me 🙂
    Adam
    IG: @ahgrafx (just to remind you of my work)

  15. Frankly it shocks me that people still think that the art market is the only place to sell art. I feel this way because growing up in a small community I was surrounded by artisans just making art because they loved to and none of them were ever starving. The art market seems really far away and none consequential in my own humble life. I don’t want my art to be a way for people to pass money. I want people to own my art because it means something to them. Because it makes them feel something.
    I would suggest that if some one is having trouble understanding this way of thinking to start looking at all kinds of art. Don’t look at what it is worth or who made it just look until one of those pieces makes you feel something. Or you just cant stop looking at it. Then maybe even if it is not the way you want to make your art life, hopefully you can at least understand and respect people who make art just because it is beautiful

  16. Very inspiring words as always, Rafi and Klee! I had never really looked into the art market extensively, but never really realized that there was a negative side to getting your work in galleries. In a way, some seem pretentious. Artists are expected to develop their voice and style yet you have to paint what others tell you. It is very contradictory and does not add up. I love art because I feel it is part of me, of my soul. It is the reason that I decided to do it as a career, to begin with; that and I want to be my own boss and really don't like people telling me what to do. The idea of having someone telling me what to create would be very emotionally draining.

  17. Then that person can choose to only sell his work to The Rothschild Family, and the secret vaults of The Vatican… I'm sure that will be very succesful hahahah

  18. Well said. Same for buying art as for making it. Does it spark something in your soul and heart? That's what's important. If you only look at the impact on the wallet or what is perceived at the potential future impact on your wallet, it's soulless.

  19. Great stuff as always guys! With people becoming increasingly more comfortable buying art online and directly from the artist, the old guard of relying on a gallery to sell your work (at 40% commission or more) has become a thing of the past! I make my art for me first to enjoy and then I share it with the world to also enjoy. The minute that it becomes a system of making what someone wants me to make is the minutes that it stops being fun and more like a job! That's a serious freedom and creativity killer right there!

  20. Wanted to give you both some feedback. I love the intimacy of these podcasts. I listened to the first one at 2 in the morning inside a rain soaked cabin/shed in Scotland. Wrapped warmly in a blanket, drinking malt whisky under a ceiling of fairy lights. It was a captivating experience. I especially like when you touch on spirituality in your work (usually indirectly) and find the podcast medium is perfect for this kind of listening. As a crusty artist of no fixed cardigan, I consider myself to be an not-so-easily-influenced chap, and steer clear of the fan/celebrity paradigm but my mild infatuation with your unfolding work might, if I'm not careful, find me carving cheese effigies of your likenesses, or going in search of your discarded hair to knit myself a jumper out of. In all seriousness, keep up the good work, you've no idea how refreshing it is….Pip xx

  21. You two sound very much like the artists who created and promoted the original “Impressionist” movement. A need to get around the gatekeepers of what is considered “good” art. The art schools were incredibly rigid and they ruled the art world and any real hope of gaining art commissions. If I remember correctly, the artists were forced to create their own exhibitions and that really upset the status quo. The influencers of that time laughed at the artwork and discouraged people from being patrons. But that didn’t stop the artists because THEY HAD TO paint what was in their souls. And of course these same Impressionist art pieces are now worth millions of dollars.

    I’m no artist. Can’t draw a straight line. But I totally love the attitude!

  22. The “real” art collectors and that whole scene is just one big money making scam. Most wealthy collectors, the blue chip crowd, don’t typically care about the art itself. What they care about is having a piece of art by a well known artist. The other reason they buy art is for tax reasons, or more specifically tax deductions.
    My favorite artists are the unknowns. I’m a new artist, and the artists that influence my work are people like Robert Williams. It’s Williams that helped start Juxtapoz magazine and coined the term lowbrow art and pop surrealism ( check out the Mr. Bitchin’ documentary). Some other artists Im influenced by are Ed “Big Daddy” Roth, Von Franco, The Pizz, Coop, Dirty Donny… the list goes on and on. These are all people that are considered lowbrow or Kustom Kulture artists.
    At the end of the day, Art is a personal thing. If people like it, great. If they don’t, that’s great too. I agree with Klee’s comparison to indie music, it really is kinda the same thing. With the internet, the price of access and distribution is extremely low and artists no longer have to rely on commercial galleries or record labels to put their work out to the world.

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